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Creative / Re: Musical Equipment
« Last post by Gerk on Today at 02:33:42 PM »
Yep that was my lunch time obsession for a couple of years too when I worked at Queen and Spadina.  Have lunch, hit Steve's, hit all the cymbals, leave.  About once every 5 months I might buy one.
Creative / Re: Musical Equipment
« Last post by Groovetube on Today at 02:32:03 PM »
believe me, I've run the gamut. My OCD will not leave a stone unturned.

I think though, I am kinda well known for my insufferable obsession with my cymbal sound. I have quite a few cymbals here, and it's just not nearly enough. The guys at L&M roll their eyes when they see me go into the cymbal room, ask me, will you buy something this time? I say, if you finally got in a decent sounding cymbal (out of a room of likely 300 cymbals ha ha.)

My current fav ride is a custom dry 20" K zildjain. I spent 4 hours choosing it ;)
Creative / Re: Musical Equipment
« Last post by Gerk on Today at 02:27:06 PM »
Considering I've done probably close to 100 sessions in a similar (but different) small basement space with these exact cymbals and mics I'm pretty confident that I will get it sorted out :)  Don't count out mic placement, even moving mics an inch can make the world of difference.
Creative / Re: Musical Equipment
« Last post by Groovetube on Today at 02:22:52 PM »
Medium thin is where the sweet spot is. I have a handful of free zildjain thins, I hate them, but, they serve a purpose when you want that high end splat thing.

Paragons won't sound like the old zildjains I'm thinking of, I know paragons, they have a certain thing, and old aint it. Zildjain released a line recently called avedis, it was to mimic the zildjains of old, which sabian definitely doesn't make, at all, (I spent a week playing every sabian in every music store I can find...)and even zildjain has abandoned for a long time, but they tend to be medium weight 19" and up. They sound great, but man they throw hard.

Bonham was a fan of large, and thinner, though he apparently had a medium crash as well. Mediums, are simply too heavy IMO, that gongy thing, is exactly the very thing I avoid. Unless I can wind up, and there's LOTS of air around to absorb, nope. Thats why my AAXs are big venue only.

My point I think, is, we have a special situation in that we're recording in a small basement space. We can't get away with what we can in other spaces. The cymbals I have, Ive used since 2002, are recorded on many many recordings in great studios, but I had to open my mind to, in my particular space, they are the right choices. You may just want to consider it. I'm currently, battling this very thing right now. Medium weights, are definitely very bad in my smaller space, there simply isn't enough air for them. The thin, splatter too much. So I'm looking at 18" Ks right now.  If you prefer sabian, the HHX line may be of particular interest in smaller spaces (I have hihat/crash of them)
General Chat / Re: moving IMAP account From one server to another
« Last post by Gerk on Today at 02:14:23 PM »
Hehe yep I hear you there.
Creative / Re: Musical Equipment
« Last post by Gerk on Today at 01:22:33 PM »
It seems like we're at opposite ends of the spectrum in terms of cymbal likes :)   I love the splash cymbals, china cymbals and other varoius effect type cymbal tones.

The paragons sound a lot like old Zildjians to me, lots of the same body and maybe a bit less sheen.  I'm not a fan of thin cymbals for the most part (aside from a nice small/thin crash), I like mine medium-thin to medium.   They do sound a bit gongy but I like that about them.  Lots of body to work with and not just shrill top end.  I'm not a fan of the 20" crash as a crash, but as a ride/crash ride it actually sounds pretty cool which is the only reason I keep it around and it lives up above my ride.  The 16" and 18" crash are beautiful, just the right balance of sheen and body.  I have both the 14" and 13" hats and they are both awesome.  Neither are super bright but I wouldn't call them dull either.  Again lots of body to work with and they sound incredible when they are open just a smidge -- an area where I find lots of hats lacking.   Ands the ride is spectacular.  It really reminds me of an ooooooold Zildjian Earth Ride I had when I was a wee lad (that got stolen) -- that sucker seemed like it weighed about 30 lbs but what a tone!  The 19" Paragon china is probably my favourite sounding China ever.

I will get it sorted out with these, I've recorded them a lot in the 10 years I've owned them and have always been happy with them, just not much in this room yet.  My last tracking room was a lot different than this one so it's just gonna take some time for me to tweak things up and I think I have to play with my kit placement in the room a bit -- which I've been trying to avoid as I don't want to take up ALL the room space with the kit but you gotta do what you gotta do.   I think one of my problems right now is that I'm just too tight into a wall on the one side and it's jamming up all the sound, especially with the gongy cymbals.  I still have a couple of other things to sort out in the room (in terms of finding places for some of the other crap that's living in there -- finally talked my in-laws into getting rid of a pair of old and mostly hideous chairs that they have in there taking up tons of space that no one will use, ever).  Once those are cleared out I will move the kit around to a couple of places and see what happens.  I suspect that alone will clear up a lot of my overpowering cymbals.

I find it's reasonably easy to add a bit of highs/shimmer to OHs but it's really hard to adjust any of the midrange stuff in them out without mucking with the tone of the rest of the kit so I really prefer my cymbals to have some beef to them.  It's a very personal thing in terms of mixing.  We probably also play a LOT different as well in terms of attack and the like which I find makes a big difference in cymbals... I'm sure that I don't hit anywhere near as hard as you (drums or cymbals) which also makes a huge difference.  Also you have to remember that my room is not as small as yours, it's about 12' x 22' (with a section that's 18' wide instead of 12') but I currently have my drums kind of jammed into a corner of it.  Gonna pull it out closer to the middle when I have the space and I bet things "open up" a lot LOL.

Creative / Re: Musical Equipment
« Last post by Groovetube on Today at 12:00:35 PM »
hmmm. You're definitely not a drummer lol.

Paragons are well regarded, live, they're the Neil part ones correct? They're a bit harsh and gongyfor me. In a smaller room, they'd be out of control. But it'll depend on their size I think.

You have to find the right cymbal(s) for the room. Larger studios well treated you can get away with a lot. Studios like ours, we have to be ultra picky, what we think should work, sounds harsh and unforgiving in smaller setups. This is what I'm finding in my space. I have the absolute finest in hand hammered sweet medium thins that make absolutely every sound guy melt, have for years. But, recorded, they lack a certain sheen, they sound great, but it's not it. I know it. I have a pair of sabians that are very similar to the paragons. an 18, and a 17, medium thins (I HATE anything heavier!!) and they really don't cut it recording. They're absolutely great in an arena however :) (which is where they got used...) but they splatter to hard, and lack the body and decay I'm looking for in recorded sounds. The newer ones people confuse all that cut with body. A big nope there. Neil peart's cymbals have a certain sound, they tend to be smaller often and have a way of punctuating, great for shots. I have a 16 zildjain thin "A" given to me by them which is perfect for that job. it's all SMASH, and gone.

Splashes, I have no love for. :) And, china cymbals, even less. Maybe a real trash can lid type thing has it's place (like the dude in Steve Miller did...)

I find older zildjains to be magical. They're hard to find, you have to troll used shops. they have that beautiful decay, that I find missing in the more modern cymbals, which tend to focus on a sharp attack and cut. The very properties I avoid in every way possible :)

Trial and error. Speaking of maybe a walk over to century drums. Leaving my wallet, at home...
Creative / Re: Musical Equipment
« Last post by Gerk on Today at 11:32:47 AM »
I'm using a bunch I've picked over the years as well (have recorded these cymbals a bunch over the years).  It's mostly Paragons with a couple of add ins here and there, a Paiste 18" china that sounds absolutely amazingly trashy and bright but not harsh, a cheap little Zildjian splash that has just that right little trashy splash sorta thing, a tiny little sabian china -- don't remember which line but there was an 8" and 6" in Steve's at the time and they both sounded just amazing, I bought the 8 and a buddy bought the 6 and promised me if he ever gets rid of it that it will come to me. 

I find moongels work ok for some things, it did wonders for my ride, get lots of stick now but it still has that nice big earthy thing going on as well.  Tape never did a lot for me for cymbals, maybe once or twice but most times as you say not so much.

Most of my cymbals are much better for recording than live (except that Paiste which is awesome for anything hehe).  They get the job done live but they sound awesome miced up.  Just at the moment a bit loud!  I'll make it a priority to build a few panels, maybe since the weather is so warm I should get on that sooner than later! Just had to pick up another couple of mic stands ... for some reason my shorty stands were all missing in action and I HATE using full sized booms around my kit!
Creative / Re: Musical Equipment
« Last post by Groovetube on Today at 11:25:02 AM »
I love my cymbals too, they’re hand picked by hours of choosing, but they suck in recording. I’m going to spend a little time renting and borrowing to find what works best. Reflections are definitely your enemy in my experience, I’m still having a few issues but I’m slowly working them out. Having a much bigger panel cloud really did help.

Cymbals project off their edges so look at the walls where they’re slamming at. If they’re bare up there look out!

I also found taping them has very limited success. Generally taping is ok on the really large thin cymbals (ala dave grohl)

Paiste is a great recording cymbal. I find very bright sweet sounds best. Think medium thin B20s etc. mediums are a gong show ;)
Creative / Re: Musical Equipment
« Last post by Gerk on Today at 11:15:07 AM »
I really love the tone of the cymbals, I think I just need to get better mic placement is all.  Using large diaphragm condensers at the moment in cardioid.  I fully agree with the figure 8 mics, I don't have the ceiling for it at the moment!  I am going to probably change out the mics as well once I have a placement that I'm happier with, just to test things.  I have a pair of small diaphragm condensers I will be testing out as well.  I don't _think_ I have much reflections going on as it's pretty deadened immediately around the kit.  Removing the ceiling tiles made a huge difference.  I also figured out a couple of tricks with my room mic (only one right now but going to change to a pair as soon as I get around to crawling under my desk to finish patching some stuff that I hadn't gotten around to yet).
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